SJWs & Censorship in SF

Discussion in 'Science Fiction' started by Boreas, Jan 22, 2016.

  1. Diziet Sma

    Diziet Sma Administrator Staff Member

    I agree with some of the points in the different arguments.
    Regarding freedom of speech, in order to be guaranteed, we have to put up with the inconvenience that, for example, it allows me to shout “fire” in the middle of a theatrical show and provoke a stampede. “Freedom of consequences” shouldn’t, wouldn’t apply here.

    I’m a fervent defender of equality between both sexes, but I dislike and resent when someone calls me a “feminist” because I’m not one. I disapprove when women use their sexuality and feminine attributes when it suits them but are quick to pull the “feminist” card when it doesn’t. I resent that I’m offered a job because I’m the percentage within the women ratio they need to hire. It insults my brains, my qualifications and experience. I disagree when feminists shouts and scream they are better because they simply are “women". Equality doesn’t make us the same nor better. I am not a man, I don’t behave like one and I don’t want to be one. It is a simple question of DNA
    In Spain when Franco died, I was 5 years old and although I don’t have recollections of what life was like then during the dictatorship, I did live through the transitional years and through its huge changes from 1978 (referendum Spanish Constitution) till I left Spain in 1994. I know what my mother and grandmother had to go through during Franco’s time. I’m sure I don’t need to give you examples as you can all imagine it.
    Many years later, I talk to young girls and often I don’t like what I hear, how manipulative, convenient and ready to use their feminism comes across. Social movements such like feminism can be easily tampered with for selfish reasons because we are selfish creatures who tend to forget and accommodate the true values that inspired the initial movement.
    True Feminism is a far too noble cause to be used in ignorance and disrespectfully by some women and men…
     
    Sparrow, Boreas and Jack Brewhouse like this.
  2. Jack Brewhouse

    Jack Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Excellent points from Elvira. I have a friend who's currently waiting to join the Australian police. Some idiot has declared that the police must hire 50% male and 50% female applicants. The male applicants make up 80% so the women are being hired at a much lower standard. A friend of his was telling him how she finds this degrading, she's perfectly capable of getting the job on her own merits but this kind of SJW stuff means she's treated as someone inferior who needs special privileges to get ahead.
    It's sad that Australia has come to this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  3. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

    I disagree.
    The ways in which recruits to police academies (also firefighters) were trained and judged, and ultimately accepted or rejected needed to change. There was far too much emphasis on the physicality of the job, at the expense of other aspects of the job... such as temperament, negotiation techniques, and physical restraint measures requiring less brute strength. The system in Australia, as in the United States was geared for, and heavily favored male recruits. I do not however believe rigid quotas are a good idea.

    In case you think I'm a SJW, a thread from another forum that will dispel such notions; touching on artistic freedom, feminism, and silliness... http://www.thefantasyforum.com/threads/portrait-of-emelie.28046/
     
  4. Jack Brewhouse

    Jack Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    I still think you're a SJW, probably more so, in fact. Have fun, read more, get offended less, live better.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that link. As the first commenters said, it just makes you seem very creepy.
     
  5. Boreas

    Boreas n log(log n) Staff Member

    As @TomTB has said, let's keep this civil and also on topic.

    Social justice is no bad thing. In fact, it is one of the main concerns of a civilised society. But the problem is that it must be thought of within a context of liberty, not separate from it or as something that is superimposed on it. Otherwise, there is a distinct possibility of utilising pressure and force through institutional means to enforce a particular kind of 'justice' that might not be palatable to many, which in fact is often not justice.

    Freedom provides the potential for social justice to be arrived at through multiple means. If you start from the premise of bringing about some pre-fabricated notion of what social justice is supposed to look like, then not only is freedom restricted in an artificially created PC climate, but divisive, tribal-like lines can be easily drawn. The Social Justice Warriors are, in effect, the hard-line front of this 'need' to enforce a pre-conceived status quo through societal pressure and law by a certain segment of the population who think it 'just' and 'good'. I'm not surprised there is a backlash. And the backlash is all the more virulent when suppressed opinions have been denied expression for a long time. This is the post-modern climate.

    The rise of what is often labelled the 'far right' seems to me to be a consequence of the entire political spectrum having shifted much further to the Left than was probably good for a balanced society. This is not the Culture. It never will be. The academic Left has been too invested in attempting to construct their own secular Garden of Eden. If the average SJW read Banks' Culture, they'd probably fap themselves to death. A large swathe of society has been disenfranchised, and some of it is flowering in unpleasant forms. The SJWs are seen to be at the forefront of this PC culture. And for many of them, common sense arguments and hard facts seem to be an alien concept from what I've seen and heard. I think this is why there is such a backlash against those seen to be SJWs. And this backlash is specifically against the PC climate, to the point that political incorrectness and rudeness can be easily conflated, and this is something that an overtly left-leaning media throughout the west has brought upon itself to a large degree.

    In the case of science fiction and SJWs, I think the perception is that the 'social justice' atmosphere has been seen as exerting an unfair hegemony through which SF has been increasingly filtered by publishing houses and award institutions for the last two decades or so. That they are the gatekeepers and arbiters of what is good or acceptable for awards, or what kind of attitudes should be fostered. I don't think this is true everywhere, but as a trend. No wonder that e-publishing is such a success. And popular self-published authors seem to outsell most of the big name, traditionally published authors by increasingly large margins.

    Feminism (and I mean the post-modern, third-wave kind, not the original movement) and Black Lives Matter are most definitely intimately entwined with the SJW movement, but these are off topic in relation to censorship in SF, so lets not discuss them here. If you want to discuss the wider political arena specifically, we can start a new thread with some rules since it's such a sensitive topic.

    Edit: I'd like to add a caveat - I'm not intimately familiar with politics in science fiction fandom. I don't know specifics, because following the whole Hugo fiasco got bloody boring. I'm only speaking from a layman perspective.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
    Diziet Sma likes this.
  6. Boreas

    Boreas n log(log n) Staff Member

    While @Sparrow is left-leaning, I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to call him an SJW. To be honest, I've found some of his posts in the fantasy forum to be refreshingly tongue-in-cheek and even baiting, but not quite crossing the line into trolling (or maybe he did, but I never saw it if he did). I liked those posts. But some of the reactions were pretty extreme. Fun stuff.
     
  7. Jack Brewhouse

    Jack Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    I don't think you'd enjoy my opinions on politics which involve a lot of dead people in very expensive suits.
     
  8. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

    To my very point, it's you in fact who can't engage in a meaningful argument or defend your position. This thread is about censorship and artistic freedom, yet you don't support such things... when confronted with an actual instance of it, you are creeped out by it.
    Don't worry yourself, you cannot offend me. I have never spent an instant in my life being offended by anything or anyone. I usually do what I want regardless of how it effects people. They deal with it, or don't.
    Some folks were greatly offended by my artwork of a fellow forum member... but as you only read the first posts, and not those by the actual woman I had portrayed in the drawing, you only have that limited perspective. Rather gutless of you, btw. Emelie, the subject of the portrait, was both flattered and in no way offended or creeped out. Indeed, only a few people came to my defense, all three were young women who questioned why a women's nakedness is somehow different than a man's nakedness. It was the best kind of discussion, very fluid and even enlightening, you should try it sometime.
    I went on to do more, placing young women on the forum in fantasy and SF scenes, it was quite rewarding and fun for both myself, and those who found themselves at the business end of my pencils and paint brushes.
    [​IMG]

    So here's another chance for you to drop the pretense of being the intellectual world traveler, and actually engage in a debate about artistic freedom. Be brave, I don't bite.
     
  9. Boreas

    Boreas n log(log n) Staff Member

    It's a good picture! What the hell was so offensive about it to those people? Dude, start a thread topic and post your artwork. And this is a good opportunity to ask...I've been wondering if your avatar picture was one of your own doodles?
     
    Sparrow likes this.
  10. Diziet Sma

    Diziet Sma Administrator Staff Member

    Social justice is one of those pictures people end up seeing different variations, because it tends to be contextualised by our upbringing, social influence and education or lack of it. Within Europe, for example, the range in concept of social justice is vast. I learnt through falling on my face more than once that this interpretation will vary passionately without failing. Switzerland is a great example for it! How such a rich, developed country can be (in my view) so patriarchal, undeveloped and backwards in some basic justice concepts. Anyhow, as @Boreas said this belongs to another thread. I try to be loyal to myself and my views. I speak up when it is worth the while but I have no pretence of attempting to change those who differ from me, as it usually never works anyway.
    I don’t know you @j.grey, but I will say that @Sparrow is not a SJW, an unconventional thinker who doesn't shy away from his views despite of being frown upon? yes. A provocateur/teaser? yes. He also listens and reflects on other people’s opinions, at least this is my experience.

    I’m with Boreas here. Great drawing! Time for a new thread where you will keep me all wide eyed and very, very quiet… Now I’m getting back to my wine. Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
    Sparrow likes this.
  11. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member


    Thanks for the compliment!
    I had actually been so busy with life that I hadn't produced any meaningful art in well over five years... then without warning I caught the bug. Thought I'd just draw someone from the forum and get some cheap laughs... had no idea it would start a firestorm of a thread that went on for eight pages wherein everyone had their say. Very interesting in that overall the women were far more progressive than the guys... guys had this weird sort of chivalry thing going on, sort of protective of Emelie. Nice, I suppose, but certainly less liberating than I would have predicted. I don't know where I really fall on the subject of chivalry. I think I mostly don't like it, and it's up to the woman involved if it's appropriate behavior.
    The naked girl on the battle horse was a girl from Sweden, Emma, 24 or 25 at the time and who is an amazing seamstress who created authentic period costumes... I had commented once that every pic she posted of herself she was very "overdressed". She also owned and loved horses... the mixed media painting above was the end result. It was a good experience. Art should be engaging for both the artist and the subject, as well as being fun.:)

    And yeah, my avatar is a doodle I did a really long time ago.
     
  12. Boreas

    Boreas n log(log n) Staff Member

    I wasn't going to read this at first, but curiosity got the better of me. That thread is not at all about artistic freedom vs. censorship. Your two critics, irrespective of any prudish comments or attitudes, actually have it right. It's more about a violation of privacy. I can't see the artwork, but that's beside the point. It's also beside the point that the lady in question didn't care because of her easy-going nature, or that the mods decided that her opinion settled the matter. Posting the content wasn't the issue. Associating the name of the person in question without prior permission was the point, especially because it's posted in a public arena and the content supposedly had a risqué quality to it. If she had given prior permission to post, then that would be different. If you had posted without any named member association, then that would have been different. But man, not checking first and posting publicly in a forum where others know her was rather indelicate and lacked a certain grace.
     
  13. Boreas

    Boreas n log(log n) Staff Member

    I remember seeing some art you posted over at BFB, and I remember thinking it was very good. So you should definitely post more of your stuff so we can check it out.
     
  14. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

    I definitely lack grace... I did however know Emelie better than that, and though I had not asked permission, I did feel fairly confident that she would take it all in stride. In the end I was at her mercy... she could have embarrassed me quite bad if she had wished.
     
  15. Boreas

    Boreas n log(log n) Staff Member

    Again, not the point.
     
  16. Diziet Sma

    Diziet Sma Administrator Staff Member

    Yep! Sparrow is dodging...:D
     
  17. ecgordon

    ecgordon Well-Known Member

    Let's not forget that the term "Social Justice Warrior" was a creation of, or at least was co-opted by, the leaders of the GamerGate movement, and later the Sad and Rabid Puppies. Not people I care to associate with. Before that "social justice" was generally used in a positive connotation, as it should. I have ambivalent feelings about quotas and affirmative action, but do feel they are sometimes necessary to correct centuries old systems of oppression. I'm an old white dude myself, and straight, perfectly aware of my privilege, but I align myself with oppressed groups such as blacks and other minorities, feminists, gay and transgender, etc. For too long those groups have been belittled by the white male majority, who would much rather they just calm down and shut up. Only thing, nothing ever comes easy, and other than Gandhi, I can't recall any revolutionary movement that has gotten anywhere without raising a ruckus at times. People on the right who denounce social justice movements are people who probably told Martin Luther King Jr. to shut up. I'm glad he didn't listen, even though he might have lived longer if he had.
     
  18. Jack Brewhouse

    Jack Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Sparrow, I'm not censoring your work, I'm freely expressing my opinion as we're both entitled to do. Freedom of expression means opening yourself up to criticism which is how we grow. I'm actually incredibly lucky as an artist and writer to have my close friend, Coal. He's a dick. He doesn't care at all if he offends you and his blunt harshness has helped me immeasurably. I also like to draw but don't dabble towards the erotic. In fact, I've never managed to write a sex scene yet either, even though one of my books is set in a brothel.
    Here's a pic I did some time ago of a character in a book I'm re-working on now. It's Johnny Damage.

    [​IMG]
     
    Diziet Sma likes this.
  19. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member


    There's no presumption of privacy on a public forum, especially one in which she used her real name and posted pics of herself.
     

Share This Page