80s garbage

Discussion in 'Film & TV' started by Jack Brewhouse, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. Bierschneeman

    Bierschneeman Well-Known Member

    Okay, paprika, inception

    . Ive seen this online, but gave it as much credit as the Sinbad shazam movie, chemtrails, or lizard overlords conspiracy theories. I don't actually think paprika ripped off the same inspiration as inception, I said that in half jest. If paprika ripped anything off it's the directors other films which all bluer the lines of reality and dreams. (Mileniem actress is amazing.)

    What's the same. They dream dive, there's a detective, and there are a few stills that taken out of context look similar to stills in the other movie, but if you play them out the similarity breaks completely down before the shot is finished. This i would compare to the kimba the white lion is the origin for pride rock in lion king argument. Yeah they look remarkably similar, but a student of art would recognize it as a common trope, posed on rocks, and a famous painting from the 40s (called 'lion on rock') looks just as identical to both of them, and a print is even shown hanging on a wall during animation of lion king as seen in a making of video. You could also pulls stills from paprika and compare them to earlier films with similar concepts that inspired inception (like scanner darkly and all the face changes in paprika) but that's as nonsense an argument.

    Also same setting...urban.

    What's different. Paprika is a wild fun of a world where reality and dreams blur together. It involves a detective as the protagonist dives into patients dreams to help them.you are meant to smile watching this and it watches more like an r rated miyazaki film.

    Inception is an intense dark noir almost spy like. It involves a heist premise, as the protagonists dive into people's dreams to steal intellectual property. You are meant to grit your teeth and hold your breath watching this, and it watches like (pick a Phillip k dick movie).

    Inspiration. Paprika is it's own thing, deeply pulling on dreamscapes before it, seeming similar in style to Lovecraft s dream stories, andalusion dog (first movie shot as s dream), never-ending story, a lot of miyazaki s work, and the directors other films, I could try and pull others but that's a good list.

    Inception is touted as being very much so inspired by the works of Phillip k dick. Who did a lot in his pet project, what is reality, what are dreams, are they really yours, which one is real, realm. You can see the inspiration from the stories, scanner darkly , minority report, do androids dream, and less known stories. It is also worth noting that cronenbergs is a big inspiration to Nolan, Videodrome is a warped movie that also deals with dreams vs reality concepts in a noir way (also inspired by dick, the fake realities in matrix can be cited as well, also dickian).

    It worth noting ghost in the shell does this concept pretty solidly in a noir way. The written predates the paprika wriiten, and the animated predates paprikas animated, as does Stand alone complex. This has hyper terrorist, mind dives and noir themes, other than dick I'd say ghost is the most likely candidate to cite inspiration for inception or ripoff (or Manchurian candidate loosely) but there's no proof Nolan had knowledge of either.

    Conclusion, the two are wildly different one described as a kaleidoscope of colors and mirth done in the directors own unique style the other a muted serious noir film done in dickian scifi fashion (they are really after you, your dreams are not your own) neither can be said to be ripoffs, but you can trace inspiration to seperate sets of sources that overlap but not by much. I can't see these as very similar.
     
  2. Bierschneeman

    Bierschneeman Well-Known Member

    I want to know the correct answer then
     
  3. Diziet Sma

    Diziet Sma Well-Known Member

    Well, I'm quite enjoying the view from up here... :p and I haven't seen any of the films you are discussing. I need to rush now, but I might come back later and let you know what I think of Alien, 2001 Space Odyssey, Prometheus etc.
     
  4. Boreas

    Boreas n log(log n) Staff Member

    I definitely have equally strong opinions on the Alien franchise and 2001 which I'd like to share, but I'd like to discuss those in separate threads if anyone wants to start them. Also, @Jack Brewhouse and @Bierschneeman, since the discussion has moved far from the original "80s garbage" theme, do you want me to move posts relating to this more wide-ranging film discussion to another thread or are you fine with leaving it here?
     
  5. Bierschneeman

    Bierschneeman Well-Known Member

    That's up to him since he's OP.

    I did try to use 80s movies as examples.... But that's not much of an excuse.
     
  6. Bierschneeman

    Bierschneeman Well-Known Member

    OP= original poster...
    Sorry wanted to clarify because I just realized it stands for quite a few things.
     
  7. Jack Brewhouse

    Jack Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    I'm happy for the discussion to evolve organically. It's fun to follow it as it twists and turns like a huge monstrous snake that's thrashing about uncontrollably.

    In reference to the 'Inception' argument I'd like to wade in on the interpretation of the concept of inspiration. I watched the movie 1984 and it reminded me of George Orwell's work. I remembered the simplistic writing that made it accessible to me as a much younger reader and was inspired to create something similar. I was inspired which means I was filled with a desire to create something superior because of the work of a more accomplished writer. I emulated the style of 1984 but the story eventually became one of robotic creations questioning their identity. It had no plot lines or ideas that lined up, I was simply and literally filled with the urge to do better. That's inspiration.
    What we're discussing is emulation. When someone sees something and decides to do a version of it, that's a whole different thing. I wrote a story called 'Hawk-Eye' which is a bunch of 1980s TV shows brought up to date. That emulates a lot of themes but tells the story in a new and interesting way. It was emulation from inspiration.
    If someone has done something before then no matter how you change it, you're coping the ideas. In terms of HE it was a shameless rip since I went out of my way to do exactly that, I wanted to create a homage to the 80s.
    The only other time I have been 'inspired' was be the genius of Douglas Adams and Alan Moore. HHGTTG inspired me to write a deep multi-faceted sci-fi comedy but beyond that, I made sure it had nothing in common with the work of my hero. Alan Moore once wrote a short story in an old style of English and I couldn't get that idea out of my head. I ended up writing a story in the style of Charles Dickens just to see if I could do it. That's inspiration. They impressed me so much that they laid a path for me to walk but I didn't copy their actual work.
    This is a very grey are with lots of room for interpretation and I can see both sides of the argument but that's my take. Copy the themes, you're just coping, inspiration leads people off in different direction by impressing them.
     
  8. Bierschneeman

    Bierschneeman Well-Known Member

    I think we hit a natural conclusion of sorts on the current tangent.

    So I'm currently marathoning what I think is the epitome of 80s cinema, horror movies. Sure the horror movie has already been there, and in the seventies they started to really blossom out with rule changes about what you can't do being allowed and popularity of such hits as Halloween and last house on the left. But in the 80s, it's a big factory business spitting out horrors movies left and right. Huge franchises were set up, and most of them started with a paper thin budget.

    Evil dead
    Nightmare on elm street
    Friday the 13th
    Gremlins
    Hellraiser
    Poltergeist
    Reanimator
    Child's play


    And the higher budget stuff and or solo movies like cronenbergs big portfolios
    Dead ringers
    The fly
    Scanners
    Videodrome

    Shining
    The thing
    The fog
    From beyond
    Sleepwear camp

    So many more

    To me 80s movies and horror movies are synonyms.
     
  9. Bierschneeman

    Bierschneeman Well-Known Member

    Many of them are s cifi. That was my original point, sorry if I diluted it.
     
  10. Jack Brewhouse

    Jack Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    I think Evil Dead is massively over-rated. I think they were just ultra low-budget horror movies made with a tongue-in-cheek attitude and someone is seeing something in them that I'm just not. I don't get the comedy in them, I just see low-budget. That is until the third movie when it all just magically came together and became what I presume they were aiming for and missed.
    NIghtmare on Elm Street was good and spawned unending sequels. Sci-fi is bad, it has become a dumping ground for lousy movies (and books) but horror is worse. The concept was dragged out so often that it just completely lost it. The remake made no sense, it was a literal remake that brought absolutely nothing new to the table.
    Poltergeist was one of the absolute best movies of the era. Brilliantly made piece of cinema. Ignore the sequels (obviously) and it still is one of the best ghost movies around. It did have a kind of spiritual successor that was worth checking out, 'Life-force.' Interesting take on sci-fi vampires. It has a very similar style and feel.
    Dead Ringers was interesting, I was too young to appreciate the subtleties of it when I first saw it but the performance from Jeremy Irons was incredibly impressive and it was the first movie to use digital mapping to allow him to act alongside himself. Interesting film, even if just for his acting. Hard to believe he started out presenting kid's TV.
    The Fly was awesome, a brilliant and fresh new take on the original. This was everything a remake should be, it should take the original, handle it with respect and create something new and totally different.
    Scanners was a great movie and they just don't make this kind of intelligent stuff anymore. You can actually trace the intelligence level of the audience as it spirals downwards with the kind of cult films of the period.
    I'm not a fan of the shining. Another movie within a movie which makes the surface narrative difficult to stomach and just plain awkward. I actually like the hidden material very much but the finished movie just feels very messy.
    I hated the Fog. I just wanted it to be an adaptation of the book and it was totally different. The Thing was a great movie. John Carpenter at his absolute best, sadly he never hit that height again and actually declined quite badly afterwards. There was a remake but out of respect they shifted it to a prequel. It was very, very well done and definitely worth a watch.
    Check out 'The Ninth Configuration' which was meant to be the true sequel to 'The Exorcist.' It has issues but is a very interesting film. It shares nothing with the previous film except a character who was just mentioned in passing.
    Sadly, most of the really great 80s movies have been done and done to death, the ideas and concepts have been dragged out and reworked so many times that the originality is lost now. Watching them actually feels difficult because we've seen it all so many times since (before and after.)
    This is why TV is considered a 'medium.' Nothing is rare or well-done.
     
  11. Bierschneeman

    Bierschneeman Well-Known Member

    I definitely agree that horror has become the worst dumping ground for movies. Which is why I brought up 80s horror. It's the last bastion for good original horror movies. More good horror movies without being a sequel or remake exist from the 80s then the three decades following.

    Ok standouts would be the first scream, sunshine and event horizon (both scfi horrors of note neither really good) and drag me to hell. (I'll include human cebtipede 2, the first one was horrible schlock, 2 acknowledges that and states 1 is just a movie. It instead follows an overzealous fan played by one of the best psycho villain actors) I'm sure I missed some, but the majority now is utter garbage, 80s had many good high points.

    Evil dead 2 (the sequel/remake) is everything you described.but the first one wasn't trying to be tongue and cheek, it wasn't looking for comedy. That's just part of the cult fandom who didn't get it, or saw the sequels first and assumed the same of the first. Part of the point on e.g. dead is these kids were able to get better special effects than some professionals with massive budgets. The acting displays more passion than some of the most seasoned of veteran actors. It also broke the video release and theatre release barriers.

    Is it great, no, but any student of film should enjoy watching it. And any fan of horror will have it on their shelf (or else all the saw movies and all the hostel movies and every bad modern remake )
     
  12. Bierschneeman

    Bierschneeman Well-Known Member

    Just watched 80s s cifi movie search for Spock.

    Worse than I remember.
     
  13. Jack Brewhouse

    Jack Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    You see that makes sense. Evil Dead just looked like a micro-budget horror to me, I didn't see where the comedy was meant to be. It never even felt particularly sarcastic. The third was a good movie all round, I really liked that one but re-watched the previous ones looking for more of the same and couldn't even see any logic from how they got from one place to the other. It reminds me of Mad Max. I saw the first and third and though I must have missed a big chunk of the story so i went back to watch the second. It still made no sense. In the first, it's a run-down version of Western civilisation (ironically Australia) and then suddenly it's a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
    I didn't like Event Horizon, I felt it was too busy copying Aliens in too many ways. I like Sam Neil but just felt he wasn't really invested in that movie, especially at the end. As a bit of a fan of Danny Boyle I was really disappointed in 'Sunshine.' I expected it to be a lot better.
    I was actually a big fan of Star Trek when I was younger but the movies haven't aged well, much like the cast. I liked 'Voyage Home,' the humour and the Klingon ship gave it enough novelty to make it entertaining enough to get through. Most of them though, I can't watch again, they're just not good. I'd rather watch episodes of TNG.
    I liked 'Saw' but the sequels were just bad. They copied the gore thinking that that was what made the first one good. It was just the plain originality of it and the nice little twists.
    It's pretty pathetic that a movie like Saw works because it's essentially a good second-rate movie which makes it stand out as a quality production these days.
     

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